Coming out (over and over again)

[kaberett]

I'm trans: specifically, genderqueer. My pronouns are "they".

I'm queer.

Please feel encouraged to ask questions, this weekend. If you're embarrassed about asking them in public, you can e-mail or PM me and I'll post the answer here.

This is important, because the more you understand the less likely you are to hurt people by fucking up. (I am, of course, assuming good faith; and I do not, of course, speak for everyone who shares identities with me; but I've read a lot and can probably point you in the right direction, and will do my best to explicitly flag up controversies where I'm aware of them.)

Comments

[vass]

Grammatical question: how do you conjugate singular they? I've got some ideas, but I figure you or someone has already worked on this and I can just ask what best practice is instead of muddling through.

[kaberett]

It's grammatically plural - i.e. you conjugate it as usual - but can be used in the singular (c.f. the way everyone is perfectly happy to use "you" to refer to a single person!).

I've written a small linkspam/overview; but in summary I prefer "they" but will accept any gender-neutral pronouns (incl e.g. the Spivak set if you're absolutely desperate to use a ~grammatical singular~ about me, though I will roll my eyes a bit because UGH FUCKING LINGUISTIC PRESCRIPTIVISM ;) ) except sie/ze/etc, because I'm a German-speaker and I... just can't, with that one.

[vass]

Thanks, the reminder that 'you' also takes 'are' helps.

Theirself, themself: are those good usage? I've tried 'themselves' on a singular person, and it just doesn't sound right.

To clarify: I don't need justification for why you want to use that pronoun set - I find the historical evidence for its use convincing already; and even if I didn't, it's enough that it's the pronoun set you requested. What I'm doing now is trying to do it with some grace and fluency.

(Very recently I found out that S.E. Smith's pronoun set, ou/ou's/ouself worked like 'a' for someone with a Yorkshire accent, and suddenly those pronouns became 100% easier to use, because now I understand the rhythm of how to use those in everyday speech.)

[highlyeccentric]

Fun fact: English speakers have used plural they as gender-indefinite-human* pronoun since at LEAST 1600, if not earlier (I COULD try to sift for Middle English examples and probably should, one day...). I believe widespread objection to the practice is a product of 18th or 19th century grammarians, universal education, and class differentiation (people who know The Rules of latinate grammar as applied in english, vis a vis split infinitives and so on = better educated and likely more upper class than others).

* That is, not for a neuter singular, but for the 'if anyone in this mixed classroom knows the answer HE/THEY should speak up' function. HE is preffered only because of latin-derived rules which make more sense in languages where grammatical gender extends to all nouns.

[ghoti]

< vague handwavey question about names, chosen and otherwise >

[kaberett]

Short version is: my given names were chosen with care and attention and an eye on history and I actually like them in addition to valuing the history. BUT the problem is that they are gendered, and I would be perfectly happy to continue using them if people didn't consider them additional evidence that I'm ~really a [whatever]~.

So. I chose a gender-neutral name and that is what I use day-to-day because it attaches fewer implicit assumptions to me, and the issue with people using my given names is not so much the names themselves - which, see above, I actually quite like them - but with the disrespect and misgendering that they disguise.

Does that go some of the way?

[jelazakazone]

Having met you, I'm curious about what genderqueer means to you. Is gender fluid for you?

Addedum, not related to you specifically: A friend of mine came out as trans and queer (on FB) and I was surprised that they included queer. That part had been completely obvious to me (I had suspected the trans part, but wasn't sure and didn't probe:)) So, question is, is it possible to be trans and not queer?

[pipisafoat]

Since this isn't a specific question, I'm going to jump on in here! And of course my answer(s) are not the only answer(s). I look forward to seeing what else Alex / other people have to say on the subject! *follows thread*

A lot of people (especially, I find, people older than me, though not exclusively) do not like the word "queer" in large part due to its fairly-recent history as a slur. Reclamation is absolutely not universal, though personally it is my preferred word.

Also, for some people, identification as a gender and/or sexual minority (which is often what "queer" means, as a general or umbrella term) is significantly less important than their individual, more specific identity. So some people will identify as gay but not queer to make it clear that their first priority is the gay community as opposed to the wider queer, GSM, or rainbow community. Especially seeing as some people having strong feelings regarding the inclusion of gender minorities in with sexual minorities¹, this could be a way for your friend-person to specify that they prefer trans* to be part of the umbrella term of your choice.

1. in part, from the trans* community, due to the complete lack of understanding from outsiders, e.g. why don't you just admit you're gay instead of pretending to be "the other gender"? and/or that people cannot look at a "queer" person and tell if they are a gender minority or a sexual minority and thus speak wrongly, etc etc. There are lots of horrid assumptions and horrid actions coming from purposeful misunderstanding and hate, and there just plain mistaken thoughts and actions coming from accidental misunderstanding without hate. And honestly, intention doesn't always matter when it comes to that. Sexual minorities are also just as likely to have wrong ideas as sexual majorities when it comes to gender minorities, so I can see the basis for wanting a separation. (I don't personally feel like it's the best plan *at this point*, but I get it.)

[forthwritten]

Hope kaberett doesn't mind me answering but yes, it is. Trans people conceptualise their gender in all sorts of ways; while there are lots of queer trans people, there are also those who identify as gay/lesbian or straight. It seems to depend on how binary you consider your gender to be. From what I've observed in my trans* communities, if you consider yourself to be male or female but with the medical complication of being born trans, and are taking steps to rectify that, and are attracted to the opposite gender to the one you identify as, then you may very well consider yourself trans and not LGBQ.

And as pipisafoat says, not everyone considers "queer" a reclaimed term and, as such, may be reluctant to use it.

[kaberett]

I know some straight trans people, yes!

Gender isn't fluid for me, particularly. "Third gender" or "other" are approximately what I mean by "genderqueer" - I keep trying to find a better word, and I can't. I'm increasingly shifting towards using "third gender" but I have concerns about that 'coz there's more than one of them (and also for the potential for it to be seen as very appropriative, though I think my usage - which draws on Western philosophy of the last 100-200 years or so, ugh - isn't, but... well). Basically I have a static gender that is neither male nor female; I have more butch days and more femme days, but that's about expression, not identity.

pip's explanation below is also v good :-)

[calissa]

Thanks for asking this. I was wondering the same thing.

[birke]

Do you deliberately look, or want to look, androgynous? If you did, would it help strangers and acquaintances not misgender you?

[tim]

Not kaberett -- however, as a trans person, I found that other humans have a *huge* desire to attribute you to one binary gender or the other (something that most of us get trained to do from an early age and don't even think about anymore), so in reality there is very little "looking androgynous" that's possible. That is, there's a wide range of possible gender expressions, but when it comes down to getting gendered correctly by other people, the vast majority will flip a coin rather than admitting they can't categorize you.

[pipisafoat]

What tim said is true in my experience, too!

[kaberett]

What tim said about huge desire to assign me to one binary gender or another - my hair is waist-length and I intend to keep it that way and I don't have facial hair, so I'm not terribly likely to ever get the "is that a man or a woman?" nonense.

I am intending to write a Thing about expanding the available space for androgynies and gendered expressions. Because I am genderqueer and a bit femme around the edges and - that should be recognised, the idea that the only way I can be recognised as genderqueer is by looking like a skinny white boy with long hair is bullshit. Um. So. Yes. There needs to be more space for all of us to express our genders in the way we want, and some of how I am going to try to make that change is dressing the way I want and requesting being correctly gendered.

(As to how I do dress - trousers or shorts, t-shirt or button-down, often hoodies. Variable cufflinks. And increasingly, these days, perfume and necklace.)

[highlyeccentric]

If you happen to know what grammatical equivalents for 'they/zie/xir' are available in, say, French, I would like to know! It's a linguistic interest, not a personal need, but either there... aren't any such people, or I'm not searching the right terms, or they aren't putting info on the web. In a language with no neuter but which genders your adjectives, how do you cope? What pronouns does one use and how does one inflect ones adjectives? Or is some other workaround in place?

If you don't know this, nevermind, eventually I'll meet someone who does...

[katzenfabrik]

Yes, I too would love to know the answer to this! I'm especially interested in German equivalents. I talked to a German-speaking Swiss person with a gender studies diploma the other day and asked them this, and came away only with the impression that it's very hard to be non-gendered in German. :( If Alex or anyone has more information, I'll be very grateful for it.

[kaberett]

Unfortunately I don't know the answer about French - it's not one of my languages - but I have been on the periphery of conversations in which people have thrown up their hands and defaulted to English. (In fact, I think I possibly have some readers who are gender-neutral in the UK but gendered when they go home to France? If you are here I would love your input, and anonymous commenting etc is available. <3)

In terms of German, in this comment thread I link to a post I made on the topic at the LashBlog - got some REALLY awesome comments on it :-)

[silveradept]

My collegiate French says that gender-neutral third person doesn't happen, because mixed gender or unknown gender default to masculine. However, there surely must be a kludge somewhwere that developed out of necessity.

[pretty_panther]

Do they prefer theirselves or themselves if I was making reference in my own journal? I need to hunt down my table again. I had a tumblr post with all the different pronoun lists to stop me getting confused so ofc I lost it and didn't save it. Clever Sam.

I can't think of anything else to ask. I have been trying to read up on things myself because while it is wonderful that some people are happy to answer questions, it is my responsibility to learn really. I will return to browse comments in case someone asks something that I hadn't noticed though :)

[kaberett]

♥

I'm not sure I quite understand the first question -- can you rephrase please?

[silveradept]

What do you mean when you say queer, so that I don't make assumptions about your queer based on someone else's queer?

[kaberett]

My attraction to people isn't predicated on plumbing or gender, more or less, and thank you for asking.

ETA I can expand on this if you have follow-up questions, but I will need more specific prompts to give more detail! Because brains. :-)

[joshuaorrizonte]

I have no questions. I just wanted to say that you're an awesome person. <3

[kaberett]

Back atcha. ♥