{faith is both a prison and an open hand}
May. 29th, 2015 01:33 pmSOME TERMINOLOGY
The part where I wryly tell anecdotes so you can gauge your interest in reading several thousand words on the topic
I've been talking intermittently over the last little while about shit like theology as repository of psychosocial extelligence (e.g.). Thursday lunchtime I realised with some dismay that I needed a purification ritual and I needed one fast and all of this is stuff I'm cobbling together as I go along, but I ended up with: sorting out my hair; showering even though it was hard; scrubbing my face and hands with some of the nice salt we keep in; moisturising with the E45 that I stuck a couple of bay leaves in lo these many years ago; eating half a teaspoon of honey from a friend's parents' hives; and then I spent the journey over to the tattoo shop meditating, and now I have symbology etched on me, and it is good -- but I have also realised that I've been doing most of my talking about this stuff via chatting with people one-on-one and I might perhaps benefit from going into a bit more detail, a little more formally.
The disclaimer
This is all me. Descriptors apply to me only; phrasings are chosen to indicate my state of mind with respect to my own status rather than as a general statement on How Religion or What I Think Of Religion More Generally. In the absence of direct and unambiguous statements that something is inherently unsalvageably flawed (e.g. literalist unitary interpretations of Biblical texts) I'm not actually disagreeing with you: you do you, we're cool. In particular, I don't actually care whether There Exists (for some value of "exists") A Deity Or Deities (for some value of "deity" or "deities"); it's not relevant to me and it's not something I'm particularly interested in.
Background
I'm going to start out by summarising my background and context so it's all in one place. It goes a bit like this:
To summarise the summary: I was a perfectly content atheist ex-Catholic (of the "existence of god/s is irrelevant to me" variety -- I had long since decided that any god unhappy with me applying my code of ethics as best I could wasn't one that deserved worship, and reading a pile of books by Karen Armstrong in my late teens finally got rid of some of the guilt over that). I now appear to be an atheist ex-Catholic with increasingly irritatedly hippy pagan bullshit leanings.
Getting here from there
November 2010: Grossmutti died. November 2011: Harry and Keris died. All of a sudden I had a very definite use for All Souls', not least because it was one of the things Mama did; one of the things I was capable of thinking in the immediate aftermath of my mum telling me she had died - along with a whole bunch of how to sort out the logistics of dropping out of a concert of the orchestra I chaired on five days' notice - was that I'd been craving her Seelkuchen and I was never going to get to eat them again, and then my mother and Problematic Fave Aunt and I got down to the mouldering ancestral pile as the advance guard and there was a bag of them in the front fridge over from All Souls' and I cried a lot. And then I realised that going to Mass on All Souls' was a thing I wanted to do, as ritual and tradition, as comfort and memorial, as a thing I could take out of the context of a God who had forsaken me and turn into a private tribute and offering of my own, on my own terms.
It was about here, at least in narrative terms, that I realised that the way I feel after a good counselling session has an awful lot in common with the way I feel after Mass, at least with a sermon that works for me rather than annoys me. Which is how I ended up at the realisation that confession + Mass serves much the same function as counselling: reflection on the self, on what one has done or failed to do, on one's actions and aims and ideals, and how to better achieve them. (It is probably worth noting that as a mid-teens Alex for all Heinlein's many faults and there are many I imprinted quite hard on the concept in Stranger in a Strange Land of I am god, you are god, we are god, collectively and separately, not least because of its echoes of made in God's image.)
Now add to that: that I started working with mindfulness-based cognitive therapy in my fourth year of undergrad take 2, and consequently to think about the value of focuses for meditation; the context of my awareness of observant atheist Judaism; and reading a pile of Karen Armstrong and history-of-theology more generally. Outcome: moving away from the internet-evangelicals and college-Christian-Union insistence that the Bible is the literal Word of God with One True Interpretation, and towards (and this in part through discussion with my mum as well, in fact, but also memories of
jedusaur's community college class on the Bible as literature) interpreting it (and all religious documents) as inherently living texts, which (like classical - in the loose rather than strict sense - music) have been written in one context and read in another, with any exegesis being of necessity a collaboration across temporal and spatial distances. Perfection may be changeless, but nothing changeless is alive; and in this as in all else I'm not terribly keen on performing actions unless I know why.
Food laws are obvious: by and large it comes down to "eat this and die, so just don't". Menstrual taboos turn out to optimise for sex resulting in conception. You pass this shit on via oral tradition or write it down or whatever and you make it holy because what holy means here, really, is important: kids, we learned this the hard way, so remember it so you don't have to.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realise that pretty much the same thing is true of the psychosocial side of things: that, yes, humans being fundamentally social creatures benefit from community and ritual and ways to indicate and reciprocate belonging, but that in addition to this religious texts can be how we as a species have enshrined what we've learned about how brains work, how people work, in a desperate attempt to build up sufficient extelligence on the topic that we don't, every one of us in every generation, have to learn it all the hard way again.
Here is where I've talked about some of this before, under access lock, in dribs and drabs: relevant are the phrases count your blessings and everything happens for a reason and others of that ilk. Because it turns out that I do count my blessings, and it does help; and, yes, everything happens for a reason. They're phrases worn to rags and tatters, that have been twisted out of true into condescension and resignation, but nonetheless they contain truth; nonetheless, there were reasons I went to Mass; nonetheless, there is something profound and important in the concept of being loved unconditionally, yes, even with your flaws.
Thus arises the deal with myself where I've got to go to at least one of Mass or therapy at least once a fortnight: I need the dedicated time and the dedicated space, or at least I do a lot better when I have it, and if I've got to go to one I'm more likely to actually schedule and make it to therapy because it will annoy me less.
That's the fortnightly ritual. I've made myself others, cobbled together out of collective extelligence about how to handle life events, taught myself other triggers to fire off moments of reflection. Annually, as discussed, there's All Souls' and my three weeks of formal mourning that follow it; there's the tries-to-be-daily pause before my altar on the way out, wherein I say I will try to make good choices, and similarly feeding the sourdough starter (I give unto it libations; it gives unto us the bread of life); and the occasional, the lighting candles or small fires, from Catholicism and from paganism and from human trust in fire. I've found and created and learned symbols and symbologies and focuses: Hecate grabbed me so hard in her aspects as triplicate, as of crossroads and of choices, with their connotations of balance and movement.
Increasingly I think in terms of Terry Pratchett's Small Gods: symbols acquire power through their relevance, through how they (metaphorically) speak to people, through being necessary (hear the echo: art is good if it has sprung from necessity). Thus the symbols that have hung around for long enough for us to still be aware of them -- they have power, there are shared and common reasons for their staying, and learning why will leave me the wiser. Trusting myself enough to follow where instinct leads in this arena will take me to places that need tending: the feeling of being called to Mass on All Souls', the sense that Hecate was a symbol I needed enough to have set up an altar to her, to choice and chance and memory.
I will build myself armour of symbology. The ink I acquired yesterday symbolises change and choice and constancy; it is a reminder and promise to myself; and with it, with this choice, I claim this body as my own, in distinction to its being simply where I happen to live. (Part of the symbology of change is that it is sufficiently simple and sufficiently abstract that I can attach new meanings to it as desired.) And that's why I felt the need to ritually purify myself before receiving it: it is a dedication of & to myself, and deserves to be given due weight, to be taken as seriously at the beginning as I mean to go on.
tl;dr
Symbols have power and we're drawn to them (like moth to flame) for reasons. WHO KNEW.
This concludes the service. Go in peace.
- exegesis: critical explanation or interpretation of a (particularly, religious) text (from "to lead out")
- extelligence: knowledge-outside-one's-head; the cultural capital available to us in the form of media; things we don't have to know or learn anew every damn time because they're available externally
- lares & penates: Roman (guardian) deities of house & family, of home & hearth, worshipped at household shrines
- psychosocial: relating to psychological development in and interaction with a social environment
- theology: the study of the nature of religious ideas
The part where I wryly tell anecdotes so you can gauge your interest in reading several thousand words on the topic
I've been talking intermittently over the last little while about shit like theology as repository of psychosocial extelligence (e.g.). Thursday lunchtime I realised with some dismay that I needed a purification ritual and I needed one fast and all of this is stuff I'm cobbling together as I go along, but I ended up with: sorting out my hair; showering even though it was hard; scrubbing my face and hands with some of the nice salt we keep in; moisturising with the E45 that I stuck a couple of bay leaves in lo these many years ago; eating half a teaspoon of honey from a friend's parents' hives; and then I spent the journey over to the tattoo shop meditating, and now I have symbology etched on me, and it is good -- but I have also realised that I've been doing most of my talking about this stuff via chatting with people one-on-one and I might perhaps benefit from going into a bit more detail, a little more formally.
The disclaimer
This is all me. Descriptors apply to me only; phrasings are chosen to indicate my state of mind with respect to my own status rather than as a general statement on How Religion or What I Think Of Religion More Generally. In the absence of direct and unambiguous statements that something is inherently unsalvageably flawed (e.g. literalist unitary interpretations of Biblical texts) I'm not actually disagreeing with you: you do you, we're cool. In particular, I don't actually care whether There Exists (for some value of "exists") A Deity Or Deities (for some value of "deity" or "deities"); it's not relevant to me and it's not something I'm particularly interested in.
Background
I'm going to start out by summarising my background and context so it's all in one place. It goes a bit like this:
- I was brought up Roman Catholic, and then at around the same time I realised (i) that I couldn't reconcile the teachings of the Vatican with my ethics and (ii) that I was queer. Over the course of several years I wretchedly came to the conclusion that I couldn't in good conscience be a member of the Catholic Church but I couldn't do anything else, and it was heartrending and awful and I ended up leaving the Church well before I lost my faith.
- I am Jewish. In that my father's Jewish, it is completely obvious to all concerned that I bear his genetic material, but nobody up that line of the family's been observant since at least my great-grandma. Separate from the question of ethnicity, I also spent a chunk of time in my late teens paying some attention to various bits of online Jewish community (much less vile than the Christians I found, by and large!) and to bits and pieces of the Cambridge community. The combination of the two introduced me to the concept of observant atheist Jews: people who recognise the value of the community and ritual and teachings without actually feeling any particular need to engage with the metaphysical/spiritual stuff. I summarise crudely, but this is not an uncommon thing and as (for want of better terminology) lateral cultural heritage has had a fair bit of influence on me one way or another.
- In Yuletide 2013 I wrote dystopian spacepunk future Greek mythology fic, and as concept and symbology Hecate grabbed me and isn't showing any signs of leaving yet.
- Late 2014 I accidentally developed a coherent theology around the sourdough culture I'd managed to get going and grumpily started referring to the sodding thing in terms of lares & penates.
To summarise the summary: I was a perfectly content atheist ex-Catholic (of the "existence of god/s is irrelevant to me" variety -- I had long since decided that any god unhappy with me applying my code of ethics as best I could wasn't one that deserved worship, and reading a pile of books by Karen Armstrong in my late teens finally got rid of some of the guilt over that). I now appear to be an atheist ex-Catholic with increasingly irritatedly hippy pagan bullshit leanings.
Getting here from there
November 2010: Grossmutti died. November 2011: Harry and Keris died. All of a sudden I had a very definite use for All Souls', not least because it was one of the things Mama did; one of the things I was capable of thinking in the immediate aftermath of my mum telling me she had died - along with a whole bunch of how to sort out the logistics of dropping out of a concert of the orchestra I chaired on five days' notice - was that I'd been craving her Seelkuchen and I was never going to get to eat them again, and then my mother and Problematic Fave Aunt and I got down to the mouldering ancestral pile as the advance guard and there was a bag of them in the front fridge over from All Souls' and I cried a lot. And then I realised that going to Mass on All Souls' was a thing I wanted to do, as ritual and tradition, as comfort and memorial, as a thing I could take out of the context of a God who had forsaken me and turn into a private tribute and offering of my own, on my own terms.
It was about here, at least in narrative terms, that I realised that the way I feel after a good counselling session has an awful lot in common with the way I feel after Mass, at least with a sermon that works for me rather than annoys me. Which is how I ended up at the realisation that confession + Mass serves much the same function as counselling: reflection on the self, on what one has done or failed to do, on one's actions and aims and ideals, and how to better achieve them. (It is probably worth noting that as a mid-teens Alex for all Heinlein's many faults and there are many I imprinted quite hard on the concept in Stranger in a Strange Land of I am god, you are god, we are god, collectively and separately, not least because of its echoes of made in God's image.)
Now add to that: that I started working with mindfulness-based cognitive therapy in my fourth year of undergrad take 2, and consequently to think about the value of focuses for meditation; the context of my awareness of observant atheist Judaism; and reading a pile of Karen Armstrong and history-of-theology more generally. Outcome: moving away from the internet-evangelicals and college-Christian-Union insistence that the Bible is the literal Word of God with One True Interpretation, and towards (and this in part through discussion with my mum as well, in fact, but also memories of
Food laws are obvious: by and large it comes down to "eat this and die, so just don't". Menstrual taboos turn out to optimise for sex resulting in conception. You pass this shit on via oral tradition or write it down or whatever and you make it holy because what holy means here, really, is important: kids, we learned this the hard way, so remember it so you don't have to.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realise that pretty much the same thing is true of the psychosocial side of things: that, yes, humans being fundamentally social creatures benefit from community and ritual and ways to indicate and reciprocate belonging, but that in addition to this religious texts can be how we as a species have enshrined what we've learned about how brains work, how people work, in a desperate attempt to build up sufficient extelligence on the topic that we don't, every one of us in every generation, have to learn it all the hard way again.
Here is where I've talked about some of this before, under access lock, in dribs and drabs: relevant are the phrases count your blessings and everything happens for a reason and others of that ilk. Because it turns out that I do count my blessings, and it does help; and, yes, everything happens for a reason. They're phrases worn to rags and tatters, that have been twisted out of true into condescension and resignation, but nonetheless they contain truth; nonetheless, there were reasons I went to Mass; nonetheless, there is something profound and important in the concept of being loved unconditionally, yes, even with your flaws.
Thus arises the deal with myself where I've got to go to at least one of Mass or therapy at least once a fortnight: I need the dedicated time and the dedicated space, or at least I do a lot better when I have it, and if I've got to go to one I'm more likely to actually schedule and make it to therapy because it will annoy me less.
That's the fortnightly ritual. I've made myself others, cobbled together out of collective extelligence about how to handle life events, taught myself other triggers to fire off moments of reflection. Annually, as discussed, there's All Souls' and my three weeks of formal mourning that follow it; there's the tries-to-be-daily pause before my altar on the way out, wherein I say I will try to make good choices, and similarly feeding the sourdough starter (I give unto it libations; it gives unto us the bread of life); and the occasional, the lighting candles or small fires, from Catholicism and from paganism and from human trust in fire. I've found and created and learned symbols and symbologies and focuses: Hecate grabbed me so hard in her aspects as triplicate, as of crossroads and of choices, with their connotations of balance and movement.
Increasingly I think in terms of Terry Pratchett's Small Gods: symbols acquire power through their relevance, through how they (metaphorically) speak to people, through being necessary (hear the echo: art is good if it has sprung from necessity). Thus the symbols that have hung around for long enough for us to still be aware of them -- they have power, there are shared and common reasons for their staying, and learning why will leave me the wiser. Trusting myself enough to follow where instinct leads in this arena will take me to places that need tending: the feeling of being called to Mass on All Souls', the sense that Hecate was a symbol I needed enough to have set up an altar to her, to choice and chance and memory.
I will build myself armour of symbology. The ink I acquired yesterday symbolises change and choice and constancy; it is a reminder and promise to myself; and with it, with this choice, I claim this body as my own, in distinction to its being simply where I happen to live. (Part of the symbology of change is that it is sufficiently simple and sufficiently abstract that I can attach new meanings to it as desired.) And that's why I felt the need to ritually purify myself before receiving it: it is a dedication of & to myself, and deserves to be given due weight, to be taken as seriously at the beginning as I mean to go on.
tl;dr
Symbols have power and we're drawn to them (like moth to flame) for reasons. WHO KNEW.
This concludes the service. Go in peace.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 01:45 pm (UTC)I'm a teeny tiny bit uncomfortable with Cos, well, as the excellent
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 02:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 03:19 pm (UTC)The blood type diet comes to mind because of a friend's post over on LJ yesterday. He said that as far as he can tell, none of the four diets "based on" blood type would be bad for a person, but that he could find literally nothing about why the people advocating them thought they were a good idea or where they had come from, and "God told me this is what you should do" would at least be some kind of explanation.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 03:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 03:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 03:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 09:08 pm (UTC)First of all: as I said to
Whereas I was focussing purely on the motivations for the specifics of laws and beliefs, and at that extremely crudely. It's true enough that "eat shellfish in the desert and you'll probably die" is a food taboo based on pragmatics; but the same isn't true of the milchig/fleischig distinction, of "thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk", which is about ethics and morals and much more nebulous concepts than food hygiene. It is, as I said - flippantly but honestly - obviously All A Bit More Complicated Than That.
The same's true of menstruation taboos. It matters to me that we don't reduce everything done by The Ancients to BUT IT'S ICKY THO; it's important (to my entire argument, heh) that we recognise and accept that our ancestors were capable of gathering and assimilating data and observing patterns. In the case of menstruation, it's evidently more complicated than simple ick: firstly because it's not all disgust with presumed-women's bodies (in that sex is encouraged during pregnancy - when procreation's impossible - by many forms of Judaism; and in that the Abrahamic religions more generally, ignoring the issues Christianity went on to develop, specifically emphasise presumed-female satisfaction and pleasure from sex as important goals), and secondly because there's actually an aspect of science to this I picked up via my sex ed work that I find fascinating. Specifically, most people tend to ovulate around a fortnight after the start of their period, which coincides neatly with "one week after the cessation of menses". And there's some suggestion that you want to have sex for the first time as close as possible to ovulation to maximise the chances of conception - having previously had unprotected sex appears to affect motility & vigour of freshly-introduced sperm, presumably via pH changes and the like.
So. It's very tempting and very easy to look at something and go "this is all terrible" (... cf, I suppose, the ongoing discussions on the tumbls about how the Rocky Horror Picture Show is awful... but actually it was incredibly important when it came out). Living texts! Context! And so on! Lots of feels.
So yes it's absolutely the case that some of the extelligence encoded is fear-of-Other and indeed less savoury stuff, but I don't think that menstrual taboos are necessarily an example of that.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-03-30 11:41 pm (UTC)red meat has iron, dairy has calcium, these interfere with each other's absorption, do not take a supplement of one within two hours of taking a supplement of the other
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 02:11 pm (UTC)Why yes, I would love to read several thousand words on this, particularly when they're this well-written. Thank you for putting this out there.
Also, congratulations on your new ink!
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 02:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 02:31 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if you were offline when I posted about people opting in to
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:03 pm (UTC)honestly I had an indecisive flail? because I have a bunch of flail about WHAT IF IT IS PRIVATE THOUGH which... actually doesn't make much sense given that you're offering to post it, but, yeah, Deferred Opting In rather than opting out, will do the things now <3
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:20 pm (UTC)Nod!
and also nod. access coming when I'm home.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 05:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 05:18 pm (UTC)Interesting concept, my Catholicism may be shading in this direction. I can't quite shake the last little bit of belief, but I shook off the Church a long time ago for similar reasons to those you mention.
Oh, I like that and the intersection with lares and penates (which also reminds me of Shadow Unit fandom's exchange of starters and referring to them as Shoggoths).
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 08:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-29 09:11 pm (UTC)My first therapist appointment is on Tuesday.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:24 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-06 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-06 10:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-30 03:20 am (UTC)I am A+++ing your theory: I have recently rediscovered saying a rosary often, particularly while I'm driving an hour and a half home from school in the evenings. It has always been very clear to me that many Catholic prayers are as much about meditating as they are about praying, at least in the way I have interacted with them, so I was completely unsurprised when my first grasp at using mindfulness skills to calm down after a class session that made me angry was Rosary, then deep breaths and active mindfulness/grounding, then a Chaplet of Divine Mercy, then loud angry rock music, then have come down enough physiologically to set my attention elsewhere for the next hour while I finished the drive, then come home and rant about it to T. for five minutes precisely, then set it aside--and that worked quite effectively for stabilizing me and helping me both direct attention away from and bleed off anger that I knew was an over-reaction and moreover didn't have anywhere to go and so was not going to be effective in any way other than turning inwards and burning my bones to carcinogenic ash.
I wish I had more general stuff to add on to your theory or interact with, but mostly it's just: recited prayers as meditation, ritual as mindfulness, confession and Mass as CBT, exegesis as narrative therapy. (And isn't it so typical of the arrogant white Western male etc. etc. kyriarchy that psychology, invented by people steeped in kyriarchy, thought that it was a totally new thing with totally new ideas about humanity.)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:13 am (UTC)It's nice to know this all makes sense to other folk as a theory, though!
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:16 am (UTC)giftingoffering the rosary to a Catholic friend/relation/acquaintance/whatnot who will appreciate it?(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 03:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-30 08:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:15 am (UTC)(ALSO. I AM GOING TO BE IN PORTLAND AGAIN THIS SUMMER FOR OSBRIDGE AGAIN. But I imagine you are unlikely to be taking another conveniently-timed roadtrip...)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 09:00 am (UTC)(AAAAAAH <3)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-30 07:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-30 07:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-31 08:48 am (UTC)I keep meaning to write up my own on going spiritual wanderings and wonderings (particularly in the light of occasionally attendeding church (URC which is the tradition I was brought up) as Mum's carer. But currently I have very few spoons (and doubt I will have any spare have till A is out of hospital)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-05-31 11:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-01 04:45 pm (UTC)insufficient brain to formulate a coherent response (it is being spectacularly monday), but this is a good writing and I would definitely like to hear/read/discuss more. as time and brains permit.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-06-04 12:18 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2019-01-15 05:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2019-01-15 10:17 pm (UTC)You are super welcome, and I'm glad it's interesting and useful! As is probably obvious this is a thing I think about a lot, and my opinions are still very much in this broad area, and I'm still very happy to have ongoing conversations :)
(no subject)
Date: 2019-06-20 08:25 pm (UTC)although? I'm still not actually protective of myself enough to where I would leave for myself for that. It's because to realize that I had to make queer acquaintances/friends...). I feel my lack of ritual/community/that sort of thing but struggle with being sensibly Adult in your counseling-y sense about my baggage in services anymore. And also feel drawn to observant atheist (or agnostic, which is closer to how I presently consider myself) Judaism.A lot of this does resonate (I do think at this point my proto-[Hecate in your case] candidates are probably not from the Greek (or Roman) pantheon
and tbqh I occasionally dash off a plea to anoia?!?) as a potential model for structure going forward?