Notes on distress tolerance (v stream-of-consciousness)

[kaberett]

Jumping-off point. Content notes for abuse I suppose? Some discussion of self-injury.

• "Some people may not have been shown ways to tolerate emotional discomfort appropriately, for example being punished for expressing normal emotions like crying when they were sad." Ow, yeah.
  
• Okay, so vulnerability/sadness/anger are emotion it's Not Okay for Me To Have. (To some extent jealousy, but that tends to be a cover for feeling sad/vulnerable for me, so.) ("Not Okay" -- will get hit/abandoned/whatever. These feelings are dangerous.)
  
• I started out with "well the main feeling I tolerate very poorly is 'unsafe' and well obviously feeling unsafe is distressing", which is not necessarily helpful.
  
• ... circling back round to identifying the messages my body is sending me before the Screaming Crazy...
  
• I'm really struggling with the idea proposed by this and the panic disorder infopack that if I'm just less scared of the effects of consuming caffeine I'll be able to ~resume drinking tea~~~? I have a substantial evidence base that in physiological terms I really don't get on with it well - significantly raised heartrate, etc - and I don't think it's wrong of me to decide caffeine isn't worth it? Like, I don't think that's actually me exhibiting safety/avoidance behaviours?
  
• I absolutely am avoidant of family members who make me incandescently angry. Again, I'm struggling to see that as a problem? Like, they're going to ignore my boundaries and describe me in awful ways, why would I want to spend time with them, I don't, etc.
  
• Yep, well aware of seeking excess reassurance; working really hard on not doing it (up to and including asking friends et al to not reassure me because it won't help), and slightly to my surprise it is getting better; I still have the Everyone Is Secretly Dead thing, but it's getting much quieter.
  
• I cope really badly with resources that treat SI like it's axiomatically bad, as opposed to a neutral coping mechanism like breathing. This is probably partly because I by-and-large don't do myself lasting damage, but I'm still sorting out how much of it is that autism-related stimming happens to look like SI, or whether resources that think SI is awful and counterproductive also think stimming is. (Something bright and well-defined to focus on is an anchor and a buoy, yes, simultaneously.)
  
• "Now the emotion in and of itself is not necessarily distressing, unless we also hold distress intolerant beliefs which tell us the emotion
  is bad in some way and must be stopped." ??? I mean yes okay "don't be sad in front of other people they'll hit you" is clearly compounding distress, but again I say, being unsafe is... just distressing? what am I missing?
  
• (except that I construe a whole bunch of "negative" emotions as being "unsafe", even if they aren't necessarily, yes, got there)
  
• (I don't have "a perceived inability to fully experience unpleasant, aversive or uncomfortable emotions", I have a well-founded belief that it is not safe to experience those emotions)
  
• (actually this is all relevant to my problems with academic writing, hmm, well, in that case I feel a bit less bad about wading through this during work hours :-p)
  
• hmm, explicit parallel to learning to tolerate physical pain. "But physical pain isn't unsafe!!--" self, you've put a great deal of time and effort into learning which kinds of physical pain are safe and can be ignored, and which aren't and can't.
  
• Perhaps I should be constructing "UNSAFE" as "fear".
  
• ... okay but I already do the stuff of going "what is this feeling of distress trying to tell me" and accepting that it's probably got a point; I just don't trust people enough to share it with them (and finding the line between "reassurance-seeking" and "reasonable requests for support/listening" is interesting).
  
• "you need to feel the emotion first, accept it, ride through it,
  and then take action to improve it." - pretty sure that in general I do a fairly good job of this.
  
• taking the "opposite action" to my distress avoidance strategies frequently implicates other parties; what I am trying to avoid is frequently being sad/angry/whatever in front of someone else. It isn't okay to ask for support of the listening-and-not-freaking-out variety and assume it'll happen.
  
• ... but I just used "ask for" when I meant "demand", and made a blanket statement that doesn't actually hold, and I keep looking for other ways to get out of having to do this ("but my support people have too much going on themselves, it's not fair to ask" oh shut UP)
  
• I'm struggling to see the material difference between behaviours described as "distress avoidance" and "distress improving" (the latter being described as "soothing" or "activating").

Comments

[redbird]

Yes, obviously feeling unsafe is distressing. *For me*, it's worth sorting out whether the feeling of danger is realistic: e.g., am I sensibly being more cautious than some people about heights without handrails because my balance isn't great, or is the reaction keeping me away from things that I rationally know aren't risky because they do have solid handrails?

It sounds as though the caffeine thing was written by someone who hasn't really grokked that humans vary, in part because human bodies vary.

[flippac]

I have a big catch with "what is sensible caution?" that a lot of people don't understand until it's explained - compound failure. I try to set my instincts up such that they're okay if a whole bunch of other stuff is going wrong so that I'm suitably cautious when I'm tired, fatigued, have dyspraxia, sensory processing and autism symptoms peaking etc etc. Which is a lot more cautious than I need on an average day!

[sidheag]

This is confusing me right now and I may understand more later... so sorry if this is complete rubbish... but would it be fair to say that, for reasons that were once good but no longer apply, you are afraid of showing, and hence, sometimes, of admitting to feeling or facing the fact that you feel, (certain) emotions, *and one of those emotions is fear itself* which makes it hard to make progress on the fear, because you're afraid to look at the fear head on?

[redsixwing]

Huh. I can see where fear being intolerable leading to fear of fear would be an awful trap. (This is not my trap, but.) Sort of a mixed bag otherwise?

Not clear on the difference between "list of harmful ways to deal with distress" and "near-identical list of soothing behaviors."

I like your thread of figuring out which pains are unsafe and which are just pains. (This is not a thing I am good at - stronger pains tend to mask weaker, such that fixing one results in a big mess of small ones to clean up after, that I would not even notice but for the absence of the big one. This is true physically and emotionally.)

[highlyeccentric]

I'm having trouble following this, but I think perhaps 'unsafe' is not a basic emotion. You pointed to fear there, there's probably also... nervousness and a few others? I'm just going to blather thoughts at you, concerning bits of this, but as it's not so much an argument as a list of things thought vaugely in the order they were thought, they may cover ground you'd already covered by the time you got to the end!

"Now the emotion in and of itself is not necessarily distressing, unless we also hold distress intolerant beliefs which tell us the emotion
is bad in some way and must be stopped." ??? I mean yes okay "don't be sad in front of other people they'll hit you" is clearly compounding distress, but again I say, being unsafe is... just distressing? what am I missing?

I think what that's trying to say is not that being afraid ought to be a happy feeling but that it doesn't need to be compounded by HO SHIT I AM AFRAID NOT AGAIN WHY SO AFRAID AM I AFRAID OF EVERYTHING AAAARGH. Your physical pain analogy is probably helpful: there are some kinds of physical pain that indicate you need to make a rapid status change. Likewise some kinds of fear. Other kinds of physical pain can be tolerated if you have reason but you wouldn't do it for kicks, or necessarily for *other people's reasons*. Then there's negligible pain, and good-kinds-of-pain (some people's experience of exercise? SI? BDSM?).

And, hmm. You're right that certain distress/panic/pain signals are important learned responses. BUT. There is prooobably a way of recognising and responding to fear with... if not no distress, less? I think, from personal experience and watching others (including you?) that sometimes we *put up with* the shit that's most distressing because it's... so big it's hard to assess if it's reasonable?

... okay but I already do the stuff of going "what is this feeling of distress trying to tell me" and accepting that it's probably got a point; I just don't trust people enough to share it with them (and finding the line between "reassurance-seeking" and "reasonable requests for support/listening" is interesting).

You do share a fair bit of that on t'internets, though. I'm thinking there's a secondary fear about what happens when you admit vulnerability? Especially in a space you don't explicitly control (whereas this is *your* internet space). TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE you know I grok that. A not insignificant number of people will be shitheads about it! But shitheads is shitheads, and non-shitheads would benefit from the honestly. Alas I do not know how to solve this aside from dumping the shitheads asap, but as we ahve seen, that is very difficult to realise one ought to be doing.


I'm struggling to see the material difference between behaviours described as "distress avoidance" and "distress improving" (the latter being described as "soothing" or "activating").

Yes I have trouble with that too, and diff shrinks take diff calls on it. I think it also depends what the *problem* is. Like, what is good distress improving for, say, fear of abandonment is often excellent avoidance for work anxiety!

[highlyeccentric]

Also here, have a picture of a duck: http://speculumannorum.tumblr.com/post/111565630347

[highlyeccentric]

I think it also depends what the *problem* is. Like, what is good distress improving for, say, fear of abandonment is often excellent avoidance for work anxiety!

... that would be because in few cases is the actual behaviour inherently avoidant or self-caring. The differnce lies partly in the root cause and mostly in the application.

Have you tried workbooks intended for Borderline Personality Disorder? A shrink gave me a DBT workbook (it might have been linehan? I've lost the scans so I'm not sure) once which seemed to make decent distinctions on this - although hard to tell since I am more anxious and dont' *have* many distressors other than work & social anxiety and a bit of perfectionism.

[worlds_of_smoke]

Thank you for pointing that page out. I read the first part and... think it applies, though I'm noooot quite sure. I'll have give it a read through.

I'm really struggling with the idea proposed by this and the panic disorder infopack that if I'm just less scared of the effects of consuming caffeine I'll be able to ~resume drinking tea~~~? I have a substantial evidence base that in physiological terms I really don't get on with it well - significantly raised heartrate, etc - and I don't think it's wrong of me to decide caffeine isn't worth it?

I think the fact that you have physiological problems with it makes it okay to stay away from caffeine. But I would look at things and see if there's some fear worked into there. If there's some fear worked into the issue, you need to dissect that and try to figure out what exactly are you afraid of. Does your heart rate make you think you're going to have a heart attack or panic attack? If you sleep like crap when on caffeine and a lack of quality sleep impacts your health, leaving you feeling especially mentally or physically vulnerable or fragile? Things like that.

I think you can dissect the fear while respecting the fact that caffeine isn't good for you. So if it's "oh god, I can't have caffeine because [underlying fears]", you need to turn it into "I can't have caffeine."

I absolutely am avoidant of family members who make me incandescently angry. Again, I'm struggling to see that as a problem? Like, they're going to ignore my boundaries and describe me in awful ways, why would I want to spend time with them, I don't, etc.

I don't think that's a bad thing, to be honest. It could be that the author isn't making accommodations for people who have abusive family members. Or it could be that the "avoidance of family members" only applies when you have small problems with them. Like "I burnt the pie and she screamed at me, so now I'm avoiding her" stuff.

Another thought: Abuse is a pattern and maybe distress tolerance focuses more on the singular events. "This too shall pass" and all that.

re: being unsafe: I think some people can tolerate it better. Constructing it as fear might definitely be helpful. There are situations where people are unsafe and they get through them -- forex, people may live in a crappy part of town, but never actually get robbed. They have an awareness that crap can happen, but they don't let their fear be the focus of their life.

(Oi. I'm not sure that works as an idea, but I can't figure out how better to word it. -headskritch-)

I'm struggling to see the material difference between behaviours described as "distress avoidance" and "distress improving" (the latter being described as "soothing" or "activating").

Maybe the difference beween them is a level of degree? Or maybe "distress improving" is when you do those things only when you're distressed? Then distress avoidance would be when you do those things before you even feel the distress?

(If this rambles or doesn't make much sense, sorry. /o\)

[sidheag]

On the last point, I think the difference is that they call it "distress avoidance" when you do these things instead of experiencing the emotion, and "distress improving" when you do it after experiencing the emotion. It gets a little confusing when one asks "for how long, then?"; the answer is probably "for as long as it takes to convince yourself you can".

[worlds_of_smoke]

That makes sense to me. (I'm assuming the last quote is "for as long as it takes to convince yourself you can deal with things".)

[liv]

I may have misunderstood exactly what's going on here, either in your head or in the resources you've been reading. But it seems to me that, yes, being unsafe is distressing, and that's completely right and you should not be getting over it. But being distressed does not inherently make you unsafe?

At least, it may do if you're in the company of an abusive jerk who will punish you for feeling distress. But most people will not in fact use your distress to hurt you. Which might mean that, in trusted company, you don't need to be scared of feeling distressed. Obviously "trusted" is a weasel word, I'm not suggesting you should just unthinkingly trust everybody who isn't a known abuser. But it's possible that on some level you're slightly confusing cause and effect, maybe?

[azurelunatic]

I always visualize "trust" as a multi-slider sound-and-lights board. Here is the slider for "will not spill green beans on my graphing calculator". For Darkside it is at full-trust. For Shawn it is at full-distrust. For a random classmate it is neutral. For a random stranger on the street it is bound to the "might steal my expensive graphing calculator" slider. Here is the slider for "will use my distress to hurt me". For a close friend who has been helpful in the past, it is trusting. For the relative who has hurt me in the past it is at full distrust. The random stranger in the street may well be at "will probably Think Uncharitable Thoughts" which might work out to Mild Distrust.

[jjhunter]

I find your brain unpackings endlessly fascinating. Thank you for sharing. <3

[azurelunatic]

Also there's the "okay so I am feeling Sad" situation, and possible responses include:
* give no indication, show no weakness
* acknowledge, demand support
* acknowledge, ask for support without demanding (have a plan for what to do in case they can't give support right then/at all)
* acknowledge without either asking for support or implicitly demanding support
* acknowledge and defer support, e.g. "I'll be all right for now; I have a session booked for later this week"
* acknowledge it when it isn't a crisis


I get stage fright. This is a thing I know about myself. I know that I am going to talk to People, and the pit of my stomach hurts and I shake. I also know that stage fright will not cause me to die, and that other people understand stage fright. Once I have recognized that it's stage fright, the experience diminishes from "oh my god I am suddenly in danger somehow?@?!! This is So Not Good!!!!" and being on board the Panic Symptom Escalator to "meh, this is somewhat tedious and WHY ARE BODIES EVEN." and de-escalates onto the Annoyance Conveyor Belt.

[hairyears]

Yeah, sounds like someone hasn't unpacked 'unsafe' and 'distress'... Or assigned a value to safety, and feeling safe.

Also: avoidance *works*. The trick is making sure that it doesn't crowd out other stuff.

[shehasathree]

Yeah, the part where avoidance works really, really well at making me feel better is my undoing. Like, distraction - great! But how do I get back on track afterwards?

[vass]

[has had this post open in a tab for a long time, keeps rereading but a response hasn't bubbled up, but it's important stuff]

[shehasathree]

Same.