[fandom: TMA] speculation

[kaberett]

So! I was chatting! with recessional! and we concluded some very upsetting things (textual analysis mostly M's, but I did some of the wondering that prompted it :-p).

Spoilers up to. Um. No, okay, I was going to say "technically 187" but what the hell, let's say "189" and call it good so I don't gotta watch what I'm saying.

Alright. So.

• Jon's just been dragged into the un-Seeable un-Knowable tunnels, cutting him off from connection with the Eye, meaning that he'll eventually die.
  
• (For bonus points, the closer is Georgie telling him he's not allowed any tape recorders, when 1. we know they manifest apparently spontaneously around him so it's not like it's under his control, and also 2. we know he's been choosing to record statements, i.e. the making-an-audio-recording is an important part of him not dying.)
  
• Georgie. Has. A cult. Not only does Georgie have a cult but she knows this is a bad thing and is tearing on ahead with it anyway because... it's useful! So they're. In the dark. In a cult.
  
• Martin, meanwhile, has been getting increasingly frustrated with Jon's honesty about his uncertainty, about not knowing what The Right Thing To Do is, about his hesitance to act (because he keeps making shit worse)... but seems only too happy to fall right in with Georgie's absolute burning righteous Certainty that she can Fix The World, even if... sometimes... that means... starting... a cult...
  
• (oh hey remember the last time Jon got kidnapped into a space where the Eye couldn't really see him?)
  
• ANYWAY the point of all of this IS: what the Eye knows, Jon knows. ... what Jon knows, the Eye knows. to what extent is Jon's uncertainty deliberate and constructed and denial, as a way around the "popularity contest"?
  
• (PS yes I am absolutely reading Jonah as the Peer [yes yes yes that's not quite how parliamentary terminology but go with it for the excellent multi-layered pun okay] in his glass tower who doesn't want to be here and doesn't want to do this but, even more, doesn't want to take action to stop it, and no longer derives any pleasure from any of it--)
  
• ISN'T IT. IN THAT FRAMING. INTERESTING. THE CHOICES JON MAKES ABOUT WHICH AVATARS HE KILLS OR IS PARTY TO THE DEATH OF. He's been framing it as a personal grudge! he's been framing it as revenge! he framed not killing Oliver as "it just didn't feel right"! Martin got super fucking annoyed about him not killing Fairchilds! which is to say: Jon isn't, actually, just killing every avatar he's met.
  
• Jon is killing the avatars who marked him.
  
• Jude. Jared. NotThem. Daisy. Helen.
  
• (Martin is also an avatar. Martin is also an Archive. But the key difference now, between Jon and Martin, is that the avatars that marked Jon are dying and the avatars that marked Martin... aren't. Anything like. as consistently.)
  
• (interesting also how this intersects with Jon killing avatars versus creating new ones: but the new ones are, to some extent, his, in that if marking goes either way he's marked them...)
  
• oh hey
  
• you know the way we keep being warned that this season is going to be Hard, especially around themes of friendship
  
• 
  
• Jon. was marked. for the Slaughter. by Melanie.

thank you that is all

Comments

it was not all

[kaberett]

• new entities can emerge as a function of belief (à la Small Gods), and from recombinations of existing ones
  
• Melanie is very definitely of the Dark now ("apparently it gets pretty dark" as another amazing multi-layered play on words notwithstanding) and also is, I think, at least a bit aware that Georgie is full of shit but is biding her time
  
• whatever the fuck she likes to think, Georgie is marked by the End
  
• ... and now. she has. Believers.
  
• meanwhile! Jon is incapacitated! and everyone's fine with this! and Martin Just Wants To Be Told What To Do!
  
• look if Georgie hasn't been eaten by some combination of the Dark and the End it's only because she's created something entirely new to feed herself to

[recessional]

Other notes:

- one huge unfired POTENTIAL gun here is that we still don't actually know what the Entities/Massed Entity That Is All Of Them Want(s). Not really. We don't actually know that they wanted this; we don't know that they want it to remain. Simon Fairchild's observations about how little we know remain 100% true and pertinent.

- THAT SAID, our heroes do not appear to be thinking along those lines, so in terms of what's motivating THEM, they appear to be continuing with the assumption that what Avatars feel like the Entities want/report that they want is, in fact, what they want

- Jon hates all of this. All of it. He didn't want to be here in the first place, he didn't WANT any of this, and for a long time all he wanted to do was hold still and not make it worse. Then the Eye (as far as we know, and as far as he is shown assuming) dumped what amounted to instructions along the lines of GO TO THE TOWER I WANT YOU TO BECOME A ~*BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLY*~ in his head and . . . he proceeded to decide to do so.

- This has literally bothered me since that episode: Jon HATES the Eye; Jon HATES what's been done to him and to others via his connection with the Eye; why the FUCK would Jon decide to DO what the Eye wants when it tells him it wants him to go to the tower/etc

- Annabelle expended a lot of power to try and actually exert COMPELLING force on Jon about "do not go to Hilltop Road". We are not done with Hilltop Road.


- another note about the killing the Avatars that marked him: almost all of this spun out of the fact that it is in fact both Doylistic-structure-wise and Watsonian-in-character-wise very odd that Jon would kill Helen at this point.

Unless there's an actual reason. But there isn't a compelling reason in the episode itself: there are many ways Jon COULD have elected to behave that would at various points along the way avoided any necessity of killing her. He didn't do that, though. And it's PLAUSIBLE, Watsonianly, that He Just Found Himself in that situation - but it's WEIRD in terms of Doylistic formal issues of theme, character, emotion and pacing -

- unless it's actually part of something else.

But whatever that something else is, Jon's not saying - not to us, not to himself, not to Martin. Ergo: something is going on.

And one of the things is: he's trying to undo what was done and getting rid of the things that marked him is part of that. Some of them are already gone! No need to worry about them. But.

[recessional]

- also also: if the thematic/allusive reference to the endless horrible soul-destroying crawl to Orodruin is in fact deliberate, it is germane to note that that journey literally destroyed Frodo's psyche and also he actually manifestly failed at the end of it and although things he had done previously were necessary to result in the Ring's destruction, his own direct actions were insufficient and the world was saved by Gollum and some deep irony


- also also ALSO: needing to kill the Avatars that marked him fills in some weird quirks of Jon's behaviours, like his detour into Jude's domain, etc.

[rydra_wong]

My brain is not resonating with this particular theorycrafting (not a criticism, just explanatory note that my head doesn't happen to be going this way atm), but I will add for your consideration that we haven't had a second Slaughter ep yet.

The pattern of the season so far seems to be two eps for each of Smirke's 14 (plus Extinction and some fear soup).

Those still due for a second ep at this point are, according to my notes: Slaughter, Dark, Web, Vast.

(And Extinction if we don't count that as a one-off anomaly, and either Hunt or Desolation unless 179 counts for both.)

[jjhunter]

I have been vibrating about when will there be another Slaughter episode since - gosh, since they left Upton House, really. I suspected that such an episode would either involve Melanie or put Jon (and Martin?) directly on a path to being ready to meet her again.

What episode are you counting as second Hunt?

Thing I am thinking about tonight, if there is something building metaphorically around transforming or rewriting Jon's existing Fear marks - does that mean he might need to reckon with the Mr. Spider of his childhood, that primordial childhood trauma, before he can shift himself enough out of resonance with the Fears to stop channeling them and shut the door right in their terrible presence?

Also, gosh, Jon has been hunted in these tunnels. Jon found his predecesor's corpse in these tunnels, and the librarian of his nightmares. He can't see and he can't just - know, but he can be touched and he is known, and that must be particularly unsettling after this journey of finally feeling somewhat secure and untouchable in his unwanted (but not unenjoyed) privilege. Jon's just been ripped off the seat 'Elias' nailed him to, and while that seat still waits for him if he comes back out, that's a painful unseating still.

[rydra_wong]

What episode are you counting as second Hunt?

179, possibly -- the main statement is Desolation, but the amount of Daisy-focus means it could arguably count for Hunt too.

[jjhunter]

Fair point - I can definitely see that as a potential two-in-one; desolation is the beginning and ending emotion, hunt/rejection of hunt and the 'righteous' system that enables it in the middle (statement giver interrupted by being hunted/murdered by police then mirrored over to Jon being attacked and Daisy being killed by Basira/police, which is then both release and return to desolation).

By the way, I wrote up some complicating thoughts for kaberett's thesis statement elsewhere in the comments here. Would be interested in what you think!

[steorra]

Every time you post about The Magnus Archives, I'm on the one hand curious and I want to know more, and on the other hand I really suspect that I wouldn't enjoy it - it sounds too dark for me.

[rydra_wong]

In case it's of interest, I wrote a rec/intro post last year:

The Magnus Archives: join me in this handbasket to an unknown yet doubtless delightful destination!

FWIW, I think whether it's "too dark" for you is going to depend very, very much on what hits you badly.

On the one hand, it's a horror podcast which we have been told explicitly is going to end in "a rich chocolate torte of tragedy". On the other hand, I don't feel it's grimdark. In S4 one of the characters says “I think our experience of the universe has value. Even if it disappears forever,” and that seems quite close to the heart of the show; it values the characters and their choices even if they're doomed.

[jjhunter]

ISN'T IT. IN THAT FRAMING. INTERESTING. THE CHOICES JON MAKES ABOUT WHICH AVATARS HE KILLS OR IS PARTY TO THE DEATH OF. He's been framing it as a personal grudge! he's been framing it as revenge! he framed not killing Oliver as "it just didn't feel right"! Martin got super fucking annoyed about him not killing Fairchilds! which is to say: Jon isn't, actually, just killing every avatar he's met.
Jon is killing the avatars who marked him.
Jude. Jared. NotThem. Daisy. Helen.
(Martin is also an avatar. Martin is also an Archive. But the key difference now, between Jon and Martin, is that the avatars that marked Jon are dying and the avatars that marked Martin... aren't. Anything like. as consistently.)
(interesting also how this intersects with Jon killing avatars versus creating new ones: but the new ones are, to some extent, his, in that if marking goes either way he's marked them...)

I was going through and adding Jon's marks to my s5 speculation google spreadsheet (as one does), and y'know, I don't think it's so much about killing avatars that marked Jon as revisiting and overwriting the resonant experiences that created the mark in the first place.

Sure, some of those transformative revisits have involving Jon obliterating the aspect or avatar directly responsible via Eye invocations, but not all of them. I actually think Jon doesn't necessarily have to even be the one who does the direct action - it's enough to help enable another to make a different choice, or to trust them to do so. Maybe part of Jon's arc here has been discovering that he can have these transformative experiences without just turning the same fear he felt back on the one who inflicted it on him.

See, Jon didn't kill Hunter Daisy directly. He made peace with that part of himself that could become a Hunter, that felt the desire to kill for vengeance's sake, by recognizing the path he way on and finding the moral footing to reject following it any further. He then recreated a scenario very like his original traumatic experience with Daisy's knife to his throat in the forest over the hole he'd dug as his grave, and this time he steered their subsequent journey together towards confrontation with Elias to make Basira understand not just the fear Martin (and unspoken, previously Jon) felt then with a Hunter's knife at his throat but also Daisy's string of other victims, who may not be blameless but nonetheless did not deserve to be stalked, assaulted, and now murdered with Daisy setting herself above even the 'justice' system she claimed to serve.

Jon tracked, baited, guided, and ultimately trusted Basira to reject joining Daisy in the Hunt, rejecting both the Hunt itself and the corrupting habit of always, when the chips were down, putting their police partnership before justice and personal integrity. The Daisy Jon had known in s4 was already soul-dead, but it wouldn't have been enough to address the fear if Jon had directly killed the Hunter still running around in her body - the system that enabled Daisy would still be there. I think what really put the fear to rest for Jon was not the killing of Daisy, but the killing of the possibility that Basira would realize the dark promise of her s4 path, becoming another vigilante just as bad as Daisy had been. Basira rescued Jon from Daisy's terror. Jon needed Basira not to fall victim to perpetuating it herself. He knew she had a moral code which involved protecting innocents; he needed her to also see the humanity worth saving, or at least respecting, in the 'guilty' as well as the innocent. (Wonder if Jon feels like he's now forever very much in the guilty category here?)

With the Buried, Jon hasn't exactly killed the Coffin, but he has revisited his exchange with Breekon and found empathy for its brokenness. This was a Fear domain that Jon chose to brave for friendship's sake, and I think rescuing Daisy and spending time with her as a friend and monstrous peer helped ease the aftermath of that experience. Jon didn't need to relive that marking experience, but I bet it did help for him to revisit his conversation with Breekon from the empathy for its brokenness that he only found after forcibly extracting its story and driving it away. Breekon delivered the coffin (and the web table, and the web lighter), and in a twisted way, that helped Jon get something he wanted. Jon senses that Breekon wants something from him, and he acts not unlike a priest or a doctor in assisting. (Interesting to contrast Breekon calling Martin 'Doctor' with Jon's role as metaphysical doctor, taking the pain of Breekon's existence and excising it.) Jon settles the fear both by ensuring that Breekon will deliver no more harmful artifacts, but also by trusting that Martin can take care of himself, that Jon can take the time to actually have a conversation with Breekon and find a less violent, more consensual path forward. Breekon and Hope together were unrepetent, but Breekon sundered was a being in great pain lashing out at Hope's killer and everyone she was connected to. Jon's own fear of Breekon had previously prevented him from recognizing that even this inhuman aspect could have humanizing emotion like grief.

Which all makes it very interesting that Jon's response to the fear inflicted by Jane Prentiss, and his gratitude to the professional who took such decisive care of her remains, cremating the hive and giving Martin the jar of ashes (presumably for Jon), is to try to share his Watcher privileges with Jordan Kennedy when Jordan begs him for help even though that makes Jordan more complicit in Corruption's fear, more trapped in the system of suffering. I think Jordan Kennedy's empathy and competence did help Jon with the aftermath of that very intense fear; he empathized with Jon and shared his experiences and theories of some common link of insects, sickness, and disease, which helped Jon start to put the Fear puzzle together himself, and Jordan got nightly suffering in exchange. I think the lingering fear that may or may not have been addressed by invoking the Eye on Jordan's behalf is the insidious, growing fear that Jon might not even be able to help the people who help him, who trust him with their stories; that even a person whose profession gives them fitting tools to fight manifestations of a particular Fear can be made a retrospective victim of it through the Eye's warping influence.

Which is all to say: I really think you're on to something with Jon's marks and the experiences of fear that have marked him deeply. This season is doing something really interesting with memories and fear and trying out different responses to people who have inflicted suffering: how can the cycles of suffering be broken? How can one ensure the suffering won't happen that way again?

[jjhunter]

With Jordan - oh. Jon wanted to help, but he really just repeated the violation of what Elias/Jonah Magnus did to him to Jordan, didn't he? Right down to mirroring a touch of Elias's patronizing little FYI right near the end:

Don’t worry, John. You’ll get used to it here, in the world that we have made.

vs.

JORDAN
I don’t… I don’t know how to be this. I don’t want to scare people.

ARCHIVIST
No. But you’ll learn.

That ritual was itself a mark, wasn't it - it turned Jon's own narratives of the last four seasons into a cohesive narrative of Jon as dupe, Jon as victim and unwitting tool of Elias' triumph, rewriting every victory and desperate struggle for survival and agency and understanding into just another win on Elias' bingo card. That statement leading into the ritual did to Jon's whole string of Fear experiences what Jon's nightmare looping had been doing to the memories of all of those individual statement givers, willing and unwilling - taking the elements and recombining them in a way that stripes out their agency and maximizes their sense of trapped helplessness. Post-ritual, that's what happens to the world: reality bent to realize versions of externalized fears that maximize suffering and trap people into false perspectives of the world, themselves, and their own stories.

Jon may have power in this version of reality that he feels is greater than before the change, but the change didn't empower him - it was a ritual violation that increased his suffering and made him tortuously complicit in exponentially increased suffering of just about everyone else that he can't help but see and hear and feel incapable of easing on any meaningful scale.