okay no

[kaberett]

I am legit more resentful than that about today's xkcd

if people would like to have a grump-in in comments here they are very welcome to

because what the fuck

(content note, if you haven't looked at it and are wondering: person A, it is implied, offers to look at person B's code. Person B notes that they are entirely self-taught so it might not be terribly elegant. Person A goes "I'm sure it's fine" while moving to sit down, then goes off on a hilarious tirade about how bad it is stylistically. NOPE.)

Comments

[jjhunter]

*rages a little along with you, considers a snarky poem response*

[alexseanchai]

*eyes comic*

if it works, and is well-commented so that anyone trying to maintain it knows what piece does what, who cares how it looks. they're not trying to write novels here, they're trying to write code.

[davidgillon]

In favour of style, it's possible to write code that works that is both more difficult to understand, easier to misinterpret, and easier to introduce mistakes in, even if it is well commented and working. There's, IMO, an overlap between what we look for in elegant prose, and what elegant code should offer.

[alexseanchai]

Fair enough.

[davidgillon]

Wasn't meaning to criticise, well commented and working beats 99% of the code out there! But there is an added value to code that's elegant/simple/whatever you want to call it.

[armaina]

As long as they never plan on passing on that code to anyone else, and you know you won't come back to it months later and be lost, then sure. Otherwise, keeping it neat and easy to parse is important.
You don't have to use the same exact style guide for everything, just some form of organization and readability.

[alexseanchai]

Nod.

[ceb]

Not exactly constructive criticism, is it? *wince*

[batdina]

just made the mistake of going to look. I should honestly know better by now.

but YUCK.

[birke]

It kind of reminds me of something my friend who works with Linux was saying about the "Linux community," such as it is -- he's getting seriously put off by how mean they are to each other.

[davidgillon]

Yep, thats definitely a wee bit over the top.

Especially as there is no industry wide agreement on style. Coming from the Ada side of things, I really find some of the 'approved' styles for C etc to be pretty horrendous.

My favourite style guide was MISRA C (the Motor Industry Standard and Research Association's guide for programming car electronics in C), which started with something like 'We'd really prefer you not to use C, but if you absolutely must then please do it like this...'

The style guide for my main project was actually a classified document :)

[tim]

Yeah, no, that's not funny. Like not even a little bit.

[vass]

I don't even get how that's a joke?

Like, I can't tell if he's aiming for "it's funny because the code is so bad" or "it's funny because this is what people are afraid will happen when they ask for a code review"? Except that if it's the latter, he missed the mark REALLY BADLY and ended up validating Person A.

I think your userpic and subject header said it best.

[ceb]

I think it's supposed to be funny because of the overblown metaphors (and I do know pairs of friends who enjoy language games like that within the context of their friendship, but wow could that comic do with some context to distinguish it from really mean and unhelpful criticism if that's what it's aiming for).

[ironed_orchid]

I was hoping the alt text would give some context, but nope.

[kaberett]

See, the thing is, I think the comparisons being made are actually funny... BUT TOTALLY FUCKING INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE SITUATION PORTRAYED, you know, in exactly the way nerds think being viciously unpleasant is socially appropriate provided you're funny enough about it?! Like, I would be on board with this strip if it was someone reviewing a more senior coder's code and saying it to a peer, or if there were a clearly-established relationship in which this kind of joshing were okay, but IN ITS ABSENCE NOPE NOPE NOPE

[vass]

The one about crying emoji variable names was pretty funny.

But yeah, not okay without the appropriate context.

[armaina]

I find it kinda funny? But like, I also read it as two friends the sort that just talk to each other that way no big deal and aren't hurt by it.

because on the other hand if you're talking like that to a student or someone that doesn't read that sort of thing as playful, then yeah it's pretty heavy handed. (like, it doesn't help that there ARE people in coding help groups that do speak like that, maliciously)

[kaberett]

1. A friend would surely know B was self-taught rather than needing it pointed out quite like that?

2. I have friends who are better than me at coding, with whom most of my conversations look like this, but I guarantee I would absolutely lose my shit and then probably never speak to them again if they approached reviewing my code like this.

[armaina]

I am the kind of person that could have that conversation and be perfectly fine, that's why the comic reads that way to me. Less that 'the comic is funny' and more 'I personally find humor in the comic based on my own experiences'

I absolutely see why the comic is uncomfortable, but I also see why the author would have found it humorous.

[kaberett]

I see why people find it humourous. I also think it's the kind of humour that Randall typically actively disavows, which is why it was so jarringly unpleasant; cf #1053 Ten Thousand. I don't see any material reason that explaining the delight of elegant code differs from the diet-coke-and-mentos thing.

[frayadjacent]

TBH, I'm still staring in puzzlement at this for exactly this reason. I keep wondering if the joke didn't land right, because it seems so *not* xkcd.

[cadenzamuse]

+1

[kaberett]

And yeah 3. I do indeed know of techies who think that kind of approach to learners is in any wise acceptable, cf the entirety of StackOverflow :-/

[redsixwing]

...this is exactly what I was coming here to say.

There's a reason I lurk at SF: they're generally very -good- at what they do.

There's a reason I will probably not delurk at SF: They're generally very cruel to anyone perceived as not being as good as them.

As a person who will happily trawl well-written archives for information, provided it doesn't come with a side of rage and sewage, this is very off-putting.

[shanaqui]

I initially read it as showcasing that sort of commentary in a sure-that's-funny-but-you're-an-asshole-for-saying-it way...

[kaberett]

Fundamentally I have enough trauma in this area that anyone who thinks it's an appropriate way to approach anything without really clear prior negotiation (on equal footing) between all parties goes on my Not Safe Avoid list, which is making it really difficult for me to do anything but take the super pessimistic read on this (because that is guaranteed to keep me safe, tho' see also On Getting Free, etc etc).

[frayadjacent]

YEP. As much as I use StackOverflow, it breaks my heart/enrages me at least a little bit every time. I would never, ever post there.

(Though to be sure, I also spend a lot of time on video editing software tech forums for vidding purposes. And people are almost as obnoxious and mean there as on coding forums.)

[kaberett]

tbh the only bit of the techternet other than #dreamwidth where I've found it okay to ask questions in public is German-language and specifically Austrian mailing lists. They're bizarrely polite and friendly and supportive, coming from a position of familiarity with StackExchange...

[birke]

I think the last three panels are especially sad and mean because of the first one, because the first one sets the coder up for something friendly and gives them some sense of what the reviewer expects from self-taught coders, and then the next three panels just breakdown that setup and intimates that they are so bad even for a self-taught person that they defied expectations. Ugh.

[silveradept]

Pretty much a heel move there. Way to discourage someone.

[astolat]

yyyeah. I am 10000% in favor of good consistent style when coding, but (a) that is unhelpful language and (b) I call TOTAL BULLSHIT on putting those words in the mouth of a woman coder. That is asshole brogrammer speak and it is used AGAINST women either directly or as an implicit threat of being attacked that way that keeps women out of those environments. UGH.

[cadenzamuse]

+1

[catyak]

He probably put his curly brackets in the wrong place.

[sfred]

(see icon)

[whatnothuman]

I originally read it as a harmless joke, and even posted it to my facebook to be like "haha ex-coworker remember reading my code?" (and had an enlightening discussion about use of unicode in variable names in the comments).

Like, it didn't even occur to me that it could be a shitty thing to do, perhaps because this sort of thing is so normalised in nerdy codey circles (which in addition I tend to only lurk in and only occasionally post things). Possibly also - I don't think I usually get this kind of feedback on my code, except occasionally when I'm expecting it because I've made a style no-no in the name of speedy coding or whatever (and I certainly would never give it). For me it was a kind of self-deprecating joke to point out to a coworker.

This and comments is making me reconsider. Thanks (all) for posting about it. @kaberett I can remove the facebook post if you like.

[kaberett]

idk I think it is importantly different if it's you posting it _about yourself_ than if it were your co-worker doing the thing, you know? <3 Don't need you to remove it (context is everything!), just... still twitchy about Randall.

[swaldman]

Hmm. I think I see what you mean?

I found the premise funny because a lot of self-taught coders do produce awful, illegible code, and this is something that I try to engage with - recall that I consider it a victory that I convinced my supervisor to start using variable names of >1 character.

(and I speak here as a self-taught coder, who likes to think that he got better!)

But, the going-off-on-one in the last 3 panels... meh. it's a miss for me, but I can see how it could be funny. Bear in mind that a number of xkcd characters are jerks (think man-with-hat), albeit usually in more sophisticated ways...

[beckyc]

Yeaaaahhhh that comic.

I won't deny that I've *thought* really mean "my eyes! my eyes! Now my brain is bleeding" type of things when trying to debug tangled spaghetti code. But it's not something you would say in a review. Especially not in those circumstances.

In a review, if it was just stylistic issues, you'd say something like "the basic functionality is great, but for maintenance purposes, please could you follow in-house stye conventions foo & bar?". But as long as it's got a consistent style and works, that's just icing on the cake.

[dynamite_lady]

Agreed. I'm not a coder, but my field is pretty similar in that certain people - who are perfectly capable of being polite and friendly and showing compassion in other contexts - turn into ravening wolves when faced with someone's less than perfect work, even if they know that person is new to it and still learning the ropes. Better still, this tends to happen in a public forum. :(