kaberett | Today's dismay: currants

From the department of "divided by a common language": earlier today I was Very Upset about the US use of "coffee cake", which is apparently not a cake flavoured with coffee but rather a (style of) cake eaten with coffee.

(The recipe blog intro writes itself, really; things I am already considering include some kind of poppyseed coffee cake and of course rhubarb coffee cake, which is what precipitated this particular discovery.)

This was upsetting enough by itself but Subsequent Digressions lead to the discovery that apparently in North America "currants" with no other specifiers by default means Ribes, probably blackcurrant, and not, you know, the dried grape.

... via going "hey, this EYB recipe specifies 'currants' as an ingredient for teacakes, but I've previously been informed that that means Ribes fruit not dried grapes, surely some mistake?" and getting back, approximately, "what makes you think dried grapes are relevant??? the version of the recipe in the Guardian just says 'currants'??????"

(The linking step was being Extremely Indignant about having it patiently explained to me that "coffee cake" is like "tea cake". Apparently BUT THE FRUIT SHOULD BE SOAKED IN TEA THOUGH is not a robust defence.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

kaberett

Bonus: I'm particularly baffled that blackcurrants are apparently the default NAm Ribes, because in my dialect of German Ribisel -- "little Ribes" -- is the word for redcurrants...

From:

mme_n_b

I'm in California, have never seen dried black currants, it's always red.

From:

wildeabandon

*screams in Yorkshire* Coffee cakes are nothing like teacakes. Teacakes are bread.

From:

starlady

Wait...a teacake is not a cake?

From:

wildeabandon

They are in the south, but in Yorkshire a teacake is a soft white bread roll - the sort that you might call a barm or a butty elsewhere.

From:

sfred

This! A fruit teacake has to be specified as a fruit teacake, but it's still bread rather than cake.

From:

me_and

I'm used to "teacake" meaning a fruited bread roll, probably toasted and buttered for breakfast. Which is an obvious and sensible nomenclature, unlike this "coffee cake" nonsense

From:

recessional

…mmmhm :amused:

From:

recessional

the “cake” involved in the name was assigned back when “cake” just meant “amount of something about the right size to be held in the hand”, ie a cake of soap.

Isn’t language fun? let’s do flapjacks next!

From:

kaberett

WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO ME

From:

recessional

Mischief. 😈

From:

starlady

Oh right, like how "tape" originally meant something like a ribbon, i.e. measuring tape.

From:

recessional

That wasn’t the way I was pointing out that they’re the same; I was referencing the language construction.

From:

wildeabandon

Fair. Although I can't quite figure out how that works for the Yorkshire version, because tea is the evening meal, not the mid afternoon one, and you'd be a lot more likely to eat teacakes for the morning or midday meals.

From:

ludy

But Tea Bread is eaten at Tea Time (I think the American for them would be something like fruited quick bread") and the fruit used is soaked in tea...

From:

recessional

And coffee cake is eaten with coffee when you’re Having Coffee With Someone. :)

From:

ludy

No, this UK usage of Tea/Tea Time means a late-afternoon (Southern) or evening (Northern) meal and doesn’t imply the consumption of the tea-the-drink in the way that Having Coffee With Someone, the social event, does imply that coffee-the-drink will be involved

From:

recessional

I’m aware; and in fact at this point coffee cake does NOT require coffee be drunk at that time and can be had whenever. It’s almost like language often drifts like that!

Again: my point is not a lockstep of Exact Times You Eat the Thing or exact mirroring of meaning, but rather about drift in meaning/origin so that the concepts indicated by the phrase are not related to its dominant taste, which is unexceptional if you’re used to it (as y’all are with tea cakes and we are with coffee cake) but weird when unfamiliar (as vice versa).

From:

recessional

Again, not strictly what I meant: I was genuinely pointing out to Alex that they were not caught up by the fact that teacakes do not predominantly taste of tea and that they found the construction totally transparent, meaning that the huge Brain Freeze of “coffee cake” not being The Taste of Coffee was one of habituation top the construction (or lack thereof), rather than anything else.

From:

pseudomonas

Teacakes are bread.

Tell that to Tunnock's.

From:

starlady

I don't think we have blackcurrants in the States, I've only ever seen red.

P.S. Why don't you call dried grapes "raisins"? Grapes aren't currants! :-)

From:

mme_n_b

We have them, and we have white ones also. You need to shop in an East European store to find them, though. They are generally just advertised as "European".

From:

starlady

White currants? Amazing, I had never heard of them before.

And yes, after I posted that I was like, "Wait...I think I'm wrong." My grocery store lists several currant products, which are either undifferentiated or black currants. I feel like I've seen red currants mostly in jam or at farmer's markets.

From:

mme_n_b

It's a classic Russian joke: "Seller, is this currant white or black?" "It's red." "But why is it white?" "Because it's green"

From:

madgastronomer

There is A History there, though I've forgotten a lot of the details. Basically, there was a plant disease that was attacking blackcurrants, and so just when the US might have imported a bunch and made blackcurrant flavored stuff in bulk... they couldn't. Which is why Concord grape took over as The Flavor for things for so long.

And properly, those are "zante currants", a small type of dried grape, not just regular raisins.

From:

conuly

Specifically, it infects currants, gooseberries... and pine trees, affecting the much more profitable Christmas tree harvest, so importation of those plants was banned for many years and still is in some states.

From:

madgastronomer

Oho! Information I either did not have or had forgotten. Thank you!

From:

kaberett

"Properly" here being shorthand for "in NAm English but, according to wikipedia, nowhere the fuck else" :-p

But yes, Different From Raisins! Smaller! More wrinkly! Chewier!

From:

madgastronomer

Correction acknowledged. :)

From:

kaberett

From:

ludy

In the UK rasins sultanas and currants are three different (and specific) kinds of dried grape. Which sometimes get collectively described as "dried vine fruit" in food labelling

From:

rugessnome

Grapes are the original currants!

The Ribes acquired the word that originally belonged to teeny grapes from Corinth.

Also, while I haven't seen fresh blackcurrants for sale, I do have a blackcurrant bush (now two, now I found out they don't like to self-pollinate) in the states.

The problem with the Ribes being previously banned here is they are host to a white pine rust that could potentially devastate the far more important lumber industry.

From:

recessional

To be clear, it was not a robust defence because when I pointed it out as an example of “this is a language construction of meaning that arises from common usage”, Alex immediately saw exactly what I meant fast enough to go HOW DARE bc it messed up the (playful) insistence that all of this was just Us Being Weird.

And didn’t manage to come up with the “WELL THE FRUIT SHOULD BE SOAKED—“ until some time later.

From:

kaberett

THAT IS BECAUSE I HAD BLUESCREENED AND NEEDED TO REBOOT

From:

recessional

The fact that the bluescreen HAPPENED AT ALL is the relevant part here, Alex.

From:

phi

Wait, when recipes in the Guardian say "currants" they mean dried grapes? Like small dried red grapes (raisins) or large dried green grapes (sultanas)? Is "currants" in British English different from redcurrants or blackcurrants?

Edited Date: 2025-05-07 01:26 am (UTC)

From:

madgastronomer

Dried "currants" in the US are "zante currants", a dried type of small grape, not regular raisins.

From:

phi

Thank you!

From:

madgastronomer

You're welcome!

From:

kaberett

(thank!)

From:

recessional

This was indeed the entire Around the Houses conversation we eventually had: the dried baking “currants” (or Zante currants) that one finds in the store even in NorAm turn out to be a kind of raisin, made from grapes - which none of us, including several bakers, knew because COLLOQUIALLY and in most other favouring (tea etc) “currant” gets parsed as the collection of “black/red/whitecurrant” with black being the result.

With further investigation it turns out that the kind of NorAm person who corrects everyone else with “those are SULTANAS, you can only use RAISINS to mean the DARK ones -!” often does know and sniffs as they sniff at the rest of us for calling sultanas “golden raisins”, but on a colloquial level a lot of people don’t.

So it’s not just the division between NorAm and UK, it’s literally different colloquial NorAm subsets.

From:

steorra

This is reminiscent of my experience (coming from Canada). Growing up I knew dried currants to be the little mini-raisin-y things that are apparently also called Zante currants (but I didn't know that term). My mom would put them in scones, mostly.

But it was not until much later that I realized that they are so raisin-y because are actually a kind of dried grape, completely unrelated to blackcurrants and other "currant"-labelled things that are Ribes-based.

From:

sporky_rat

I have never in my life seen a Ribes for sale, but plenty of raisins and the weird little not actually currents but raisins labeled as currents.

Figuring out Welsh cakes was hard.

From:

kaberett

... oh NO

From:

ewt

I know of at least two things called oatcakes, neither of which are what I would think of as cake.

From:

ewt

(They do, however, have oats in them.

Soul cakes, on the other hand...)

From:

conuly

Specifically, coffee cake should have crumbs. And possibly walnuts, but not dried fruit, I don't care wtf this recipe author was smoking when she said that.

...poppyseeds are a distinct maybe.

From:

ewt

Ah, yes: the small horrible little tiny grape currants (that go in e.g. currant buns), Vs the small horrible sharp fresh fruit (that I don't think I have ever seen dried.)

I wonder if my Near Allotment grapes would make decent currants. The fruit certainly isn't right for table use and the wine attempts have also been very poor (but I do now have several litres of vinegar); I'm told by the allotment Neighbour Who Lies that it's a variety grown for leaves, but a) the leaves aren't that big really b) she lies c) a person can only eat so many dolmades.

Edited Date: 2025-05-07 04:41 am (UTC)

From:

kaberett

I will happily have all of yours

(I have seen dried Ribes-currants but I think it was in the context of IDK graze boxes or something? BWFO and SousChef both do them...)

From:

ludy

My Mum told me that when she was a child during WW2 and the period of extreme rationing immediately afterwards she and her friends were encouraged to pick red and black currants to be dried and used in baking (as well as to make cordials that were recommended nationally as a source of Vitamin C for growing children). And how glad they were when proper (dried grape) currants became available.
So the American usage is effectively a FamineFood

From:

kaberett

This is apparently also when Ribena got really popular!

From:

madgastronomer

No, US dried currants are all dried Black Corinth grapes, though the idea that they're blackcurrants is common, even among bakers.

From:

highlyeccentric

Meanwhile in Australia: an apple-flavoured cake might be referred to as either a coffee cake OR a tea cake, which means you can also have a coffee-flavoured tea cake if you so desire.

From:

kaberett

;_;

From:

sfred

:-o

From:

highlyeccentric

It’s like pants. The online “divided by a common language” jokes about pants v pants was the first time I even noticed a UK:US difference because we use pants for both and i don’t recall ever being confused/embarrassed by it.

Ditto chips. Lots of kinds of chips, we somehow always know what kind we mean - the only time i remember encountering confusion in all-Aus conversations is chip sandwiches.

From:

sfred

In my specific childhood bit of North/West Yorkshire, "pants" means both; it's usually clear which from context.
However, "vest and pants" always means underwear, e.g. "if you forget your PE kit you'll have to do gymnastics in your vest and pants". It's therefore hilarious to me that in USEng, "vest and pants" means "waistcoat and trousers".

From:

sfred

Huh, I thought dried currants were dried blackcurrants!

I am boggling at the "coffee cake" things, though.

From:

kaberett

Nope! Not over here they're not!

From:

sfred

Wow! They are littler than the ones we call raisins, though..?
ETA - ah, apparently just a specific, little grape. Yay, learning!

Edited Date: 2025-05-07 12:57 pm (UTC)

From:

recessional

“Coffee cake” = “the cake you have with coffee in what used to be a koffeklatch but we don’t use German words anymore since the War”.

It’s the cake (originally) designated for Coffee-as-social-time.

From:

sfred

Thank you - to clarify: I get the concept; I'm boggling at getting to 46 years old without knowing that "coffee cake" in US English had a different meaning from here (UK English).

From:

kaberett

I too am boggling. (At The Situation, not at You Specifically!)

From:

sfred

From:

recessional

Ah, that’s totally fair! (I’ve also had many similar moments.)

Edited Date: 2025-05-07 03:48 pm (UTC)

From:

vass

I had not paused to wonder before what fruit currants even are, and now that I've paused it seems that I understand less than I do before.

Also, the dried grapes I'm familiar with are called sultanas here. Not to sniff at people who call it different things, just that that's what we call them: the breakfast cereal which in America is called Raisin Bran is in Australia called Sultana Bran.

From:

kaberett

FOR BONUS POINTS "raisins" and "sultanas" are actually basically The Same Damn Thing, it's just some people like to draw distinctions based on colours! Whereas currants are, as I say, smaller and chewier and more wrinkly and still in the overarching raisin category (which I understand you to be saying is in fact the "sultana" category in your localisation) and NOT RIBES.

From:

vass

Every time I look at this post I understand less about fruit.

Illustrative online supermarket screencaps to follow via Discord.

From:

kaberett

......... that sure is a comment title

From:

vass

Half the credit/blame goes to A.A. Milne.

From:

lnr

I am from the uk: coffee cake should have coffee in it. Usually found as coffee-and-walnut variety.

I am from Yorkshire. I'm familiar with teacake for a small soft white bread roll, but it's more usually a fruit teacake rather than a plain one, and eaten toasted with butter on as a snack, usually with a cup of tea.

But a tea *loaf* is a type of fruit cake where the fruit is soaked in tea before baking. You also get these in Yorkshire.

Currants in baking terms are like small more dried out raisins. I didn't know they were still a sort of dried grape though, but hadn't really thought about it. A blackcurrant/redcurrant/whitecurrant would be no use at all in a currant bun! (Sultanas are generally golden brown, raisins dark brown, currants smaller and nearly black).

Coffee cake being the cake you have with coffee is still weird to me.

From:

fyreharper

Coffee cake being coffee flavored is weird to me! (…also I do not like coffee, and do like US!coffeecake, which I’m sure affects the degree to which I am >:-( rather than :D about the idea :p )

From:

fyreharper

Tea cake being bread and tea loaf being cake, though. o_O Why is language like this.

From:

pseudomonas

Currants in French are raisins de Corinthe and it's damn near impossible to find them in Belgium for a not-taking-the-piss price. I was bemoaning this last year at mincemeat-making time when a friend shared pictures from their holiday in Zanthe. So I got some actual Zanthe currants for my mincemeat [which to avoid confusing non-UK people, does not contain meat].

From:

rugessnome

technically we have mincemeat in the US (though I think one brand or at least type got discontinued some time since 2020) but like ...actually all forms of currants, although the dried raisins de Corinthe grape type are probably most feasible to find, it's not very common, or popular. I don't know if this will change with millennial and onward food explorations, but I get the impression that that kind of dark sweet is out of fashion here.

And making the Complete Ball Book... recipe for (meatless*) mincemeat (which is most of what I personally have eaten for mincemeat) is actually why I first ever bought the dried grape currants... (and sherry and brandy. possibly even the golden raisins...)

*historically it did contain meat. this is not reasonable to preserve in a water bath as that recipe is, so it isn't included, and in any case if meatless mincemeat is out of fashion, meat-ed mincemeat is even moreso.

From:

pseudomonas

I don't bother about water bath preservation, I work on the basis that if it's got enough rum in it, it'll keep just fine :D My recipe is basically sultanas (and/or raisins), currants, diced apple, melted fat, mixed spices, rum, dark sugar, and lemon juice. maybe some citrus zest.

I know historically it had meat in, but these days that variety is pretty much only for history nerds; you wouldn't put it in your normal mince pies and expect people not to pass comment. Sorry to hear it's going out of fashion!

From:

kaberett

You are in fact speaking to a culinary history nerd!

......... and in fact Ottolenghi sell meat-containing mince pies and then the long-suffering front-of-house staff do the very patient yes-it-has-MEAT-in-it explanation absolutely on autopilot any time someone audibly considers buying one.....

From:

pseudomonas

No offence whatsoever meant to culinary history nerds! But if someone offered me a mince pie without qualifying the offer I would, despite being a strict vegetarian, eat it without asking any questions, given that even beef suet is pretty rare these days.

From:

ludy

As a vegetarian who does ask the question, my experience is that bought mince pies and homemade pies made with bought mincemeat are usually (though very much not always) vegetarian as standard - but homemade pies made with homemade mincemeat still have (beef) suet in at least 75% of the time. So presumably we are encountering different baking sub-cultures?

From:

pseudomonas

Entirely possibly so.

From:

alexseanchai

meanwhile, because Australia is also separated by a common language:

I've had this confusion with Americans before and my experience is that if you say "mince", whether they automatically assume you're talking about fruit or meat seems to be regional. Even if they do assume meat they usually assume pork or chicken, whereas in Australia the default mince assumption would be beef or lamb (although those others are available, just less commonly eaten). Every American I've heard talk about beef mince has instead called it ground beef.

—

derinthescarletpescatarian

From:

rugessnome

I'm wondering if the US "coffee cake" might be a calque of Kaffeekuchen, but I don't know the German culinary history there and whether some of the presence of similar cakes under "Kaffeekuchen" is back-importation of the USian variety...

I learned about your side of the pond's coffee-flavored coffee cake about a decade ago thanks to an Irish cookbook by someone with I think an American spouse.

And, what "currants" means here in the States is... difficult to pin down; since currant (and gooseberry! and particularly jostaberry! we don't do Ribes a lot) products are altogether rather scarce here, I am inclined to assume that naked "currant", particularly in baking, is in fact the (OG (see other comment)) dried grape, but currant jam/jelly(in the US, again, this is a jam like spread made of set juice), for instance, is ...probably meant to be redcurrant jam, even though blackcurrant jam does exist here. I have found freeze dried black currants for sale online here, and contemplating buying them due to a discontinued black currant cereal, but haven't done so yet.

However! One of my Kaffeekuchen search results pointed out that "streusel" would, of course, have a German pronunciation originally, and I am similarly a little verklempt about that, so. (I. did the same years ago about Euler. what can I say?)

From:

kaberett

My cursory skim of the internet did indeed indicate that that was the etymology!

FWIW jostaberries are also basically unheard of here -- they don't transport particularly well and you basically only seem to find out about them (even if you're a family that's been growing Ribes more generally for generations!) if you... get an alloment? They appear to be specifically part of the allotment subculture.

And "jelly" is actually a term we use to refer to jams-but-juice-only as well as to the gelatine thing!

............... yeah okay streusel is one of the ones where I'm sufficiently German-first-language that I just don't have any idea where to even start working out what the anglo pronunciation would be.

From:

ewt

I offered jostaberry cuttings to some allotment neighbours and they had never heard of them; incidentally. These are fairly good growers who do have a lot of interesting plants, so I think even among allotmenteers it might not be all that common.

From:

pseudomonas

rhyming with "bamboozle" I think.

From:

kaberett

... I would indeed never have guessed that. What.

From:

pseudomonas

¯⧵_(ツ)_/¯

Edited Date: 2025-05-07 11:04 pm (UTC)

From:

kaberett

(double backslash -- it's treated as an escape character the first time it shows up!)

From:

pseudomonas

in this instance, I just switched from markdown to HTML.

From:

fyreharper

“stroo-sel” (same s sound both times; same vowel sounds as in noodle), at least for California!English

From:

rugessnome

Yes, my ~southern Midwest AmEnglish says it that way. Much like "Strudel", actually, but with a rather Anglo "s" swapped for the "d" and probably a bit careless with the last vowel compared to the German pronunciation.

(I know enough German that the original pronunciation oughtn't actually be surprising, but I'd just never thought to re-examine the word with a thought to German phonology.)

From:

madgastronomer

Further fun with blackcurrants: they can be used as a textile dye to get blue. I do not have a recipe for this, alas, and wouldn't be able to get enough of them to try it if I did, but I have run across the reference in multiple places. I also don't know how color- or lightfast it is. Basically I know nothing except that it can be done, and that there's an adorable cartoon about the making of linen in Czech Republic that uses it. You can find it here, and I get very excited about it because it's a very accurate representation of the process, while also being adorable woodland creatures.