[rant; religion] {faith is both a prison and an open hand}

[kaberett]

Content notes: evangelism, mention of non-current suicidality.

Proposition: I should be able to walk into my workplace without being fucking evangelised at. I expect it from the Jehovah's Witnesses (misc) and the Mormons (home of Creepy Sexy Jesus across the way from work); I don't bloody want it inside my department building.

It's the Christian Union's ~themed week~, you see, and it's entirely possible that I'd object less if it weren't such trite, shame-based theology. "I'm not that bad, so why do I need Jesus?" Oh, fuck off.

And fuck off even more for your reaction to "I'm queer, trans, and ex-Catholic; you don't want me" being "actually, yes we do". At which point (late, stressed, underslept) I snapped back that they didn't want me in any meaningful way that wouldn't render me suicidal, all while continuing to walk away, and I kind of hope it ruined her day, to be honest, because she fucking oughtn't get away with making my work space hostile to me and thinking that doing so is ~purely and wholly loving~, because it goddamn isn't.

(See, this is why I fall down on the Captain Awkward maxim that it's a potential red flag if people aren't kind and decent to everyone around them, because fuck that.)

Comments

[davidgillon]

If someone triggers significant personal discomfort (and it's clear she did even if the poor, sweet little evangelist would be probably horrified at that), I think you're perfectly entitled to react. And evangelical Christianity is such a damned minefield for people who aren't straight, cis and ablebodied (and some of them have damned peculiar views about Catholicism as well), that defensive reactions are practically mandatory. Even in my half-believing, still semi-Catholic state I've always found active evangelism damned creepy.

IOW, in this case I think your reaction's perfectly justifiable and the Captain's maxim is inadequate to the context. Hell, I've had people trying to help on the disability front I practically had to beat off with a stick, even though I'd told them they were actively endangering me (diving in front of me on a staircase to open a door I could perfectly well open myself).

And yes, evangelism shouldn't be allowed inside the workplace, I'm boggled that they're getting away with that. Public spaces on campus, yes, maybe, but inside departmental buildings is crossing out of 'student life' and into 'the day job' for a whole awful lot of people. Evangelism wouldn't be tolerated in any other workplace, campus shouldn't be different.

[azurelunatic]

My general position on it is, one does not have to be polite while one's human rights are being violated; one should not violate the human rights of others.

How can the CU get away with it?

[legionseagle]

I suspect they're getting away with it because University administrations still have folk memories of the time the Exeter Students Guild told the Exeter CU to disaffiliate, because it couldn't require its members to sign a statement of belief in a specific form and its officers to sign a still more restrictive statement of belief and still be affiliated to a body having an equal opportunities policy. So the CU brought judicial review proceedings against the Guild and the Archbishop of Canterbury weighed in most unhelpfully on the side of the CU.

Either that, or they're scared of the Daily Mail.

[sorrillia]

*hugs*

Also, uh, "Creepy Sexy Jesus"?

[redsixwing]

You really, really should. D:

I'm sorry they're in your face. What an obnoxious theme week.

[withagreatlove]

*Hugs*

I'm so sorry religion is being it's obnoxious self. As a religious person, it makes me cringe, even though this be far from my faith tradition and worldview. Proselytisers are difficult to say the least (and proselytising in the workplace is a big no no)... for many reasons, but for certain because of their reduction and utilitarian worldview. I have some excellent theological come-backs for you if you want. Just PM me :)

And any theology that drives a queer, trans person back into the closet or over the edge, is not worth it's salt.

*More hugs*

content note: Christian Union bullshit, threats of violence, homophobia

[liv]

No, seriously, you don't want to try arguing theology with student Christian Unions. Most of them are funded by really dodgy American cults including Jews for Jesus, and they're full of naive 18-year-olds whose knowledge of Christianity extends to carefully curated excerpts from CS Lewis, and who have been fed about six "arguments" by the dodgy American cults and have nowhere to go beyond repeating those six talking points more and more aggressively. They're bad, bad news, those CU door-knocking events, and the only sensible thing to do is avoid them.

Like, when I was a student they had a theme week of "let's ~target~ the Jews", cos that doesn't have any possible negative connotations. And when my small, skinny friend said he wasn't interested, they went away and returned with the biggest, toughest-looking members they could find and shouted through the door, you'd better let us in or it will go badly for you. And they had a theme week of "sexual purity" when they hacked the LGBT-soc mailing list and sent hatemail to everybody who had ever expressed interest in the society, and threatened to out people if they wouldn't repent. And they haven't got any better in the last 15 years, I assure you.

They're both ignorant and aggressive, arguing with them is pointless and quite possibly actively dangerous. (kaberett knows this, cos they were an undergraduate in another university that's been infiltrated by these vermin. But you possibly don't cos you're not familiar with British campus culture.)

[cadenzamuse]

Wait, that's their theme for the week?

Not something like "Jesus hung out with marginalized people; so should we?" Or "We're sorry for the way our religion has hurt people over the centuries?" Or "Jesus: radical nonviolent religious terrorist and so can you"?

Not that you need my validation, but you reacted in a totally appropriate manner. There's not much difference between aggressive evangelists and cat-callers.

[kaberett]

NO THEIR THEME FOR THE WEEK IS "SO WHAT?"

YOU'RE WELCOME

[davidgillon]

Not something like "Jesus hung out with marginalized people; so should we?" Or "We're sorry for the way our religion has hurt people over the centuries?" Or "Jesus: radical nonviolent religious terrorist and so can you"?

++!

[merrythebard]

This, so much...

[sylvaine]

aaaaargh, evangelism. *hugs if wanted* Sorry you have to deal with that.

(My housemate keeps inviting me to church and such. I haven't yet had the heart to tell her that I'm violently opposed to religion in general and Christianity in particular. I just wish being Christian wasn't so fucking expected here, ugh.)

Re: Captain Awkward.

[wild_irises]

I agree with her in principle to some extent; however, I think that following her maxim to its logical conclusion makes for doormats (i.e., conventionally socialized women's behavior). If we don't have an unkind, ungentle way to express anger in anger-making situations, we lose some of the emotional spectrum we need, and it's a piece of the spectrum that is automatically granted to some and automatically denied to others.

So go you!

[sfred]

*growls*
My standard response is "Thanks; I've already got one."
("One what?")
"Cult."

[hilarita]

Gah. I wonder if the university would let other religions, other cults, or atheist groups leaflet/proselytise in the building... I feel a bad case of double standards would break out.

(I don't think the University should let people do that in the working buildings, BTW. In the student union, maybe. But most university buildings are a workplace, and it's pretty fucking hostile to allow that in a workplace.)

[birke]

At my alma mater, there were established locations in the dining hall and the library lobby with tables from which you were allowed to spread your political/religious/etc message. But you had to do it from behind the table, you had to book a table in advance on a first come/first served basis, and everyone had equal access (except those with hate messages).

(Edit: Aggressive Christians weren't tolerated at my school, whose cherished unofficial motto was "Communism, atheism, free love.")

[nickup]

depending upon the circumstances my reaction varies between "go away" at increasingly loud volumes and "stuff your middle-eastern death cult up your own arse while I go register a complaint with .... (in this case HR)"

[onyxlynx]

I've always said that if it were not for the efforts of evangelists I would have become a Catholic much sooner. (Long story.)

(I am still almost violently allergic to evangelization, by the way. I have been known to get rude by the second response. I terrorized a team of Mormons when they used to roam the streets here.)

[el_staplador]

Ugh. I am so sorry.

[merrythebard]

ARGH Christian Unions are so horrible. :-( I'm so sorry you experienced that today. :-(

(First boyfriend was an evangelical. Nearly turned me into an atheist. I daresay he wouldn't regard my being a Christo-Pagan Quaker Druid (as I am now!) much of an improvement from that, but, well. He was a crap human being.)

(My feeling FWIW is that Captain Awkward would say that the Christian Union intruding into your workplace and refusing a polite brush-off is *them failing to be kind and decent*, and that you were damn justified in reacting to that as you did. That in fact this is a text book example of, there is already a problem here (i.e. your workplace being made hostile to you in a really obnoxious and unnecessary way), so what you were choosing to do was to actually point out that there was a problem by Using Your Words.

Whether or not she would do say that, I say it. You were being as kind and decent as any reasonable person could expect you to be, and I hope you got the CU woman to actually give some actual fucking thought to what's she's doing because grrrr...)

[catyak]

I think I'd just say "I agree with Stephen Fry on the issue" and walk away. That was a truly classic put-down.

[vass]

And fuck off even more for your reaction to "I'm queer, trans, and ex-Catholic; you don't want me" being "actually, yes we do".

I did roughly the same thing to one of the volunteers for a minor political party at the last state election, and with less excuse (since, after all, they are allowed to hang around the outside of polling places trying to convince undecideds.) He responded the same way. Then he said "What if I'm gay? How do you know I'm not?" (Then you're still volunteering for a party that works to promote discrimination against gay people, and you're still anti-abortion and anti-feminist and...)

"I'm not that bad, so why do I need Jesus?"

*rages* That line of reasoning always seems to go into such horrible places so quickly.

And given that they (not Christians in general, prosletisers/evangelists, especially ones who recruit strangers or only interact with non-Christians in the context of trying to convert them) so very obviously have no care or concern for the people they're recruiting, beyond flipping their "are you saved?" binary bit from 0 to 1, it's egregious how much damage they're willing to do in the process.

[azurelunatic]

Would that I were there, and could place myself between you and any such attack like a pillar of impenetrable density.

[silveradept]

I am unaware of cultural norms, but in a worksite that allowed such, HR would have more than an earful on their hands about it. Especially from a group that sounds like it has the very worst of American Christianity as a standard operating procedure.

If polite failed, snark seems like the next option. Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn, Hall Eris, All Hail The Almighty Glow Cloud?

[legionseagle]

One does not simply snark the CU. It's like trying to stop a charging Balrog with light banter.

[serene]

Not that you asked, but I get the impression that Captain Awkward is in favor of being impolite if politeness (such as your first reaction" doesn't work.